Work in Public

In this episode, I talk about our podcast, and why it’s so different from the content we’ve created in the past.

Most of these episodes are unstructured conversations and explorations of random themes of my life—there are no actionable takeaways, no bitesized nuggets of wisdom, and oftentimes no answers to the questions we pose.

And at the same time—it’s the most honest content we’ve ever created, the stories are more real, and while it often doesn’t lead to a clean, neat work product, we’re on our path to building a beautiful body of work, and it’s a labor of love.

You know, one thing that I wanted to record, I thought about doing a quick video, but maybe we’ll just do a we’ll touch on this today and see what comes out of it is this idea of do your work in public.
[00:00:14] Right and Oh, show your work. Right. And we have talked about this, that part of what I wanted to do with this podcast is to show the work while it’s being done. And the work to me is this, the inner work, the going deeper and deeper, Taking off layers of myself, trying to understand myself, better experiencing things, and then exposing these experiences for any kind of wisdom, any kind of learning, any kind of truth, that might be worth sharing, with anyone.
[00:00:52]And usually the way that we always used to do content is I would do the same process basically for. A long time and experienced these things and tell these stories. And then when a story clicked, I would tell it again and I would tell it again, and eventually it was beautifully polished and I would click the record button and just create it.
[00:01:11]And so the first year of YouTube videos was so easy for me to do. because I had so many stories. I had so much stuff that had happened to me and things that I knew how to share and tell. And then we started with this fucking podcast and we’re going in a completely different direction.
[00:01:28] And it’s all in real time. I’m talking about what happened to me today. I’m meandering in my mind. I’m not eloquent sometimes. Yeah. There’s all these like dead ends that we get to where I go. Huh? All right. I don’t know where to go from here. And then we turn around and go on a different way. it’s not polished at all. It’s as raw as can be.
[00:01:48] It’s like when they record a 30 minute TV show, but the actually recorded material is like 10 hours. And then they edit it down to the good moments. But here the full 10 hours, you get the full 10 hours, right? You, this is the hardcore version.
[00:02:00]You know, I, I couldn’t agree more. You get unedited raw. Now, if you listen to this podcast for the next, I don’t know, let’s say three years nonstop. And then you see me on stage, give a talk or you watch some video. That’s very popular that we do. Or you read the book that I write or whatever the fuck is going to happen, then I’ll download the album.
[00:02:20] You’re going to be like, Oh, I get how all this, I’ve heard these little bits and pieces. I get, I was there when it was invented or created at the inception I’ve seen. And I know a lot that’s not in here, so I have so much more context, but live while listening to it. The problem with RA. I mean, it’s always easy to say, how are we going to go live?
[00:02:43] We’re going to be RA. We’re going to be, you know super transparent. We’re going to show our work. Or as they in product development in SAS, they have this thing now where everybody’s like building in public. Right. It’s like we’re building the product in public and sharing everything that is happening and that we’re learning, and this is kind of the better way of doing it.
[00:03:03] And the more honest way of doing it, a more exciting way of doing it, but raw is also more ugly at times, right. It’s only more exciting and more awesome. If everything you do even raw in life is awesome. Right when you know, you make mistakes, but find solutions and then share those solutions with people.
[00:03:22] That moment is dope, but when you make mistakes and you can find solution, and then you still can’t find solution, and then you still can find a solution. Is that really dope? Are you sharing them every day in public and excited to tell everybody that you don’t know how to fix this right. Or find a solution to this?
[00:03:37] That’s not as fun. It’s also not as entertaining to watch. Yeah, nobody wants to watch a movie where the hero can overcome the challenge and then can’t overcome it and can’t figure it out for years and years and years. Nobody wants to see that. We like a little bit of hardship, but then we want the relief and the release of the solution. You know, you’re overcoming the problem and us being along for the ride,
[00:04:04] he’s like really struggling for all these years. Sometimes he’s also making sandwich, catching him, ignoring the problem for a few months. Getting back to trying a solution. They already tried, but had forgotten and then repeating the same, the same thing.
[00:04:22] I, it, it’s not a beautiful, galloping forward, he know? Yeah. You know, and so. That’s something that’s easily forgotten when we talk about OD just you share it in public and just you know, build in public and share your work. And yeah, but even everybody was sharing their work. You edit what you share you do.
[00:04:46] And it’s not that we don’t. It’s not that that’s not true for this podcast. It’s not like everything that’s happening in my life is life streamed here. Thank fucking God. I would never do that shit, but this is much further than I’ve ever been comfortable with. And that at times, creates value that otherwise wouldn’t have been created.
[00:05:07] Like we’ve published everything we’ve published up until today on this podcast. Every single episode is something I would not. Or most of it, I would assume. I don’t know for sure, but I think mob pretty much all of it is not checking off my, this is great content meter. Right? I would, I would not tell anybody, listen to this episode and you’ll know what I can do.
[00:05:30] Like, you know, you’ll get. The value I provide to people. No, I would never fucking do that. If people were like, Hey, can you send me one or two links of content you’ve created? That gives me an idea of what kind of stuff you do. There would be no inner work podcast link in there right now. Yeah, there wouldn’t but still a lot of people and people I care about especially ever reached out and told me surprisingly, at times that this episode or that episode has really touched them or they’ve learned something or it made them think more deeply independently.
[00:06:04] If nobody had ever listened to anything we have recorded. I have learned a lot through the, through the exercise of going through this process with you. Right. And it’s been fun and engaging and creative, just like it feels almost honestly the audience is still very small. I don’t even know what the audience is.
[00:06:26] That gives you a good idea. I don’t check the download numbers. I don’t really care at this point, but they’re not that big, but even if it was zero to me, to me, it’s too. It’s like you and I that’s the project. Right. And we are sharing it. Part because it’s fun. And why not part, because there are people that benefit from it, which is dope.
[00:06:46] Right. And part two, document the road in a way that we’ve never documented before, where you won’t just see the end result. You. And whoever wants to, can either be along for the ride or maybe once they get the end result for people that will be curious, they’ll be able to come back and consume and get bits and pieces of raw material if they want to dive deep.
[00:07:13]Yeah, it’s cool. There’s still many, many times that are listened to a recording and I’ll have a moment of embarrassment. Right. There are moments where I’m like, this shit is dope. This isn’t even this bat. And I’m like listening to myself and thinking still is pretty motivating. I like listening to myself.
[00:07:32] I’m dope. And then 10 minutes later, I go, Jesus. Now I’ve taken a left turn to nowhere land and what is this? And I’m like, Oh God. I’m like dragging on me doing, creating these circles and circling around this thing, but not progressing. And I’m Joe. Wow. And then I have to really fight the urge. To stop listening.
[00:07:54] Right. Because I like listening to myself when I’m dope. I don’t like listening to myself when I feel like I’m embarrassing, you know, or when I’m like in eloquent or when I am not getting to the point or when I do make sense. And this as well, I’ve talked about this and taught this for years now. What’s the best coach sales coach ever.
[00:08:15] It’s yourself. Record yourself, and then listen to it. You don’t even need to be a sales teacher. You will pick everything that’s that sucks about yourself. You will know when you’re doing well and you will hear when you suck. Right. We’re our worst inner critics. Nobody criticize ourselves better than we do.
[00:08:36] And so just listening to yourself is medicine. For all your inner bullshit, you know, it’s medicine. It’s very humbling. It’s very, very humbling because sometimes we record an episode, I think I’m straight fire a to Z. I’m like, I was pretty good. And then when I listened to it, I’m like, yeah, I was good in two spots, but I also was terrible, terrible at this, you know, the 10 minute Mark or whatever.
[00:09:03] And so, with this podcast, because it’s so much raw. Now listen, most of the content that I’ve ever created before, especially all the startup and sales content. I never really listened to that shit because why would I, I had told that story a million times already. It was just the million. And first time that I recorded, I didn’t need to hear what I said, but this podcast, I’m a listener too.
[00:09:32] Because I don’t know what I’m talking about. Discovering life. Yeah. I’m like figuring shit out here, life on air. And then I listened to it to figure out what the fuck I thought I figured out to really figure it out, you know, or at least see and see who I am when I’m unedited, because that’s what I am most of my life.
[00:09:52] Right. Like most of my life is not. Me perfectly edited telling you a story for the first time. Some people get to know me this way, but most of the people and most of my life is an ongoing story and is more raw in life. And me having discussions with loved ones and family and friends and team members, discussions that are more like this than my speeches on stage.
[00:10:17] Sometimes I have crystal clarity and I tell somebody do ABC motherfucker and go. But oftentimes I have to brainstorm discussing. I’m unsure my, most of my discussions with my co-founders. I exactly like this podcast. They’re like, this is a big problem. And now listen to me, ramble circles around this for a couple of minutes.
[00:10:36] And then you point throw a question in my way and then I’ll point. And, and sometimes I get to a amazing place. And sometimes we get nowhere. I had the four calls, three calls with Anthony in the last two weeks about a big deal we’re working on and. The first time I was so uninspired and he really, he wanted the Steli magic and he was like, Oh, should we do this?
[00:11:03] Or that I’m struggling with the terms that shouldn’t be this. And they said, they want that. And blah, blah, blah. And just my heart wasn’t in it. I was just not interested in that conversation. And I was like, ah, dude, I don’t know. I trust you, whatever you say. He’s like, I think we should do option AMIC option a option.
[00:11:18] A sounds good to me. All right. Let’s just do that. Provided zero value. Second conversation. He brings up these things and then. I clearly saw one thing that was missing and I’m like, wait a second. Do we know this important fact? Because if we don’t know this fact, how do we even come up with the terms? How do we know how to negotiate clearly?
[00:11:38] And then Anthony was like, ah, yeah, that’s a good point. All right, I’ll try, I’ll hop on a call and we’ll try to figure this out more. And then the next call he gave me, he’s like, well, I had the call and you know, what’s funny, he set this thing and then he sent this other thing and blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, Almost as a joke, but half honest, I was like, wait a second.
[00:11:57] We completely misjudged his motivation. His personal motivation is this, forget about the company. He wants this, what if we gave him this? And then he signs this insanely beneficial term for us that from a company perspective, we don’t know if they would do, but I think he would. And anything was like, Uh, that’s crazy, but I like it.
[00:12:19] I’m like, just try it w you know, what’s the worst thing that could happen. And then he talks to the guy and the guy’s like, yeah, I’m happy to do that now, but you can not say the fucking details. Let’s just say it’s worth a metric ton of money for us. Like the, the end result is we are going to make a lot more money.
[00:12:45] Right. And so I had a moment of magic, but it took three calls. And maybe if you’d recorded that as a fucking podcast, it would have been like two and a half hours of talking. Get to the magic. This is what the fucking podcast is. There’s a lot of fucking fluff to get to moments of magic. I, and this is also, this is what I can produce in real life.
[00:13:10] I can’t, I’m not, I can’t just have the. Perfect answer ready for anything. Now, when it comes to, when I jump on a Q and a session like I did on the YC startup webinar that we did last week, and it’s a random group of Y Combinator founders, and they throw their questions at me because those questions are all about starting a startup.
[00:13:30] And they’re about finding the right customers. And selling and closing the deal and enterprise sales and negotiations and hiring sales reps, and how to get to product market fit and how to find the ideal customer profile. Because it’s questions I’ve answered a million times and I’ve a metric ton of experience in that’s easy to me.
[00:13:48] I’m just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Here are the answers to all those questions. Or at least pointers ideas, stories, things to share things to try. But if I had 15 founders on our call that are all running companies that are five times my size and questions about operations, you know, I’m sure in a three-hour session, I would say two smart things, right.
[00:14:12] One or two golden nuggets, but I’ll also would be a lot of fluff. Cause I don’t fucking know. Right. It. I love this process partially also, because at times it sucks so much, like, because it has taken us a long time. It was a long process when we started with a pot. Cause the only thing that we had as a goal was let’s make this not another to-do item.
[00:14:39] Let’s be creative. Let’s try new shit. Let’s do a new thing. And then at some point the idea came up. Maybe we should publish this, although it’s raw, although it’s not perfect. And there was always emotional pain involved with funny enough with you always more than with me. Right? You’re more sensitive towards that but. I think one step forward, two steps forward. One step back, I’ve pushed and you’ve accepted and surrendered and together we’ve moved in the direction where we started sharing more and more raw shit because you go back to the beginning of the podcast.
[00:15:14] I’m sure there’s some like the 10 reasons how to negotiate or like some short episodes that were like very businessy or very kind of like me trying to put together some knowledge in eight minutes about something. And then over time, if you listen to the recordings, they go longer and they go broader. And eventually you’re like, this is the last episode, the last few episodes, the first few there, they don’t sound like they’re same of the same podcast at all. Which is exactly what we want. It’s something that develops that moves.
[00:15:45] We didn’t want no, where we wanted to go. And that’s the shit that’s dope about this is that it is at times operating way out of the comfort zone or out of the comfort zone that I have when it comes to content and sharing my life and sharing my stories and. That I am an avid listener of this product.
[00:16:08] It’s like, I’m a consumer of my own product. When I was teaching people how to sell. I loved sharing all the things I learned with blood, sweat, and tears. I paid a big price in a I devoted and dedicated a big portion of my life to acquiring these lessons. And so I loved sharing them with the world to benefit others.
[00:16:34] That was exciting to me, but I was not the consumer of that knowledge anymore. I was not interested in learning these lessons while I was teaching them. It’s fun and cool right now, because as I’m trying to learn these inner work lessons, as I’m exploring these different sides of myself, as I’m expanding my own horizon about who I am.
[00:16:58] I’m sharing that and then I’m listening to it because I’m still figuring it out. I’m still trying to figure out what is going on. It could also be the title of the podcast, what is going on with Steli. He could have been another title, you know And so I love it. I love that we are sharing the work. I love that there’s more raw material, but it does come with a price tag.
[00:17:23] There are moments where I will promote an episode, you know, and then I’ll see maybe on Instagram or on Twitter and I’ll see who likes it. Right. Or who’s seen the promotion. And then I go, I don’t know if this person actually listens to this. You know, I will not get away great. Uh, from their, just like their judgment is going to strike me in ways that it’s going to Mark me.
[00:17:50] Right. They, their perception of me is going to change probably not in the best way at the same time. Who cares? Like I’m not I’m not trying to impress anybody, but the, I do have moments where like, Ooh, okay, this is not, this is not. It’s almost like, eh, you know, all I had before, it was like an Instagram account where I was like super Photoshop and it was like the prettiest sexiest version of an Instagram model.
[00:18:19] You could imagine. And now everybody just gets the 7:00 AM morning, no makeup, bad lighting, selfie, you know, uh, you know, it’s not as flattering. I don’t know. Get away from this as nicely as I, you know, and I do like to look nice, you know, as we all know, as you know, and I do like to be brilliant, you know, come across as brilliant in my storytelling chops and be like sharp and crystal clear.
[00:18:52] So I hate all the things I love and I’ve cultivated myself. I hate when I’m not. And on this podcast, oftentimes I’m not crystal clear. I’m not particularly eloquent. I’m not even making sense at times, or I’m very wordy often just like, just keep going on. And I’ve already made my point and I just keep going.
[00:19:14] And it just pains my soul when I hear that. But it’s that burning that is good medicine tumbling. It also sharpens my census and start paying attention to certain things more again on like, how do I communicate here? What kind of style of storytelling do I use? Why did I not feel at ease with this idea and kept going?
[00:19:38]So it’s a, it’s a beautiful mirror. And honestly, like if this podcast continues to be as much fun as it’s been in the last three, four months, for sure. Especially the last two months, I would say, but three, four months for sure, for the next five years. And in five years we still have. The same amount of listeners than today.
[00:20:02] I don’t know if I’d give a shit, like, I’m just going to continue this as much as, as, as, as fun as this. Right, right. , there’s also a part where I feel like right now, so few listeners and nobody really nobody really gives a fuck. Right. And I know there’s some people who do, but , we can just try crazy things and try things where we even think, Oh man, this is, yeah, this is not, this, this is dumb, but let’s just try it and play around with it.
[00:20:25] Right. And I feel like this is almost a luxury right now. Not even fully capitalizing yeah. You, you mean we should go crazier, right? Yeah. Well, we do have plans for getting we do have some, some interesting plans. I have some ideas of crazy shit and we’ll get to all of it. And you’re right.
[00:20:46] To some degree, the listener’s ship is very small and yes, you know, maybe every other episode is I get like two or three people to send me something about it. Right. Which is beautiful, but that’s so. The noise is so low that we can be beautifully creative. Now, if it was already the case that every episode would get me 200 emails.
[00:21:15] Yeah. It’s more difficult. That that makes it again, work. And also it’s harder to not be influenced then, you know, I do an episode about something and everybody’s like, Oh my God, this was the most fun. You’re so amazing. This is great. And then I do something, an episode that I really, that I felt really passionate about.
[00:21:33] And it’s like, crickets, you know, all of the sudden there’s a inner pressure of going home. Maybe we should do more episodes of that other stuff that people like. Versus now I don’t give a fuck. Like I never, nobody else. Other than the two of us ever enters the equation of what I wanna do. Yeah. Yeah. And even, even with Close, right.
[00:21:53] I saw it where in the beginning, nobody was reading it. Nobody was caring. We could just do fun stuff on or whatever. Right. And then now if we do something with Close and we do something with it, let’s try this. And then there’s different people from the team were like, w w what, what do you, and, and there’s this and that it’s like such a overhead of kind of discussion and, you know, also just public perception.
[00:22:15] Right? Okay. Can’t do that. Which is part of the genius of what I admire about admired about Joe Rogan. You know, what’s funny and heartbreaking. I haven’t, since he’s been on Spotify, I haven’t been listening anymore. Then again, I have that’s maybe not true. See correlation causation, not the same thing, because I’ve not just stopped listening, Oregon.
[00:22:39] I haven’t been listening to podcasts for a couple months. None of them. And I’ve listened. I was an avid podcast listener listened to so many podcasts, so it might not be the Spotify thing to be honest. But one thing I admire about Joe. Is how, as he was ascending and becoming just more. And I mean, he was from day one, famous way, more famous than me.
[00:23:00] Right. But it’s funny. It’s kind of cute even to put it in. Like he was way more famous than me, like really famous. It’s like, ah, he was even more famous anyways. But the, the, the beginning in the last couple of years, it’s it’s day and night, like he’s become one of the most famous people on earth.
[00:23:19] Right. And his podcast is the biggest podcast on earth. And with that, it means he probably has the largest audience of any person that is just talking. Right. Maybe musicians have a larger audience, but besides that, I don’t know. And how much. And how intelligently he, how he was very smart in putting things in place and continue to put in was in place so that his rising fame and the rising popularity of his podcasts would influence him as little as possible.
[00:23:58] Like that didn’t just happen by mistake. Like he has been working on never thinking about it or thinking about it as little as humanly possible or pushing away anything that brings that up, or that makes that penetrate his awareness. And still when you’re this famous, it will influence you. You will know, but.
[00:24:22] I think that was part of his genius was that he, I do believe in, by the notion that for the longest period of time, and maybe still today, he was just doing what he wanted to do when he was not thinking about anybody else. Right. Is this going to be popular? Will people like this? What kind of stuff do people really like?
[00:24:44] Let’s do more of that. That’s difficult to do. It’s very difficult to do. Anyways, let’s do some crazy shit on very few, but very special people are listening and continue to experiment. This is it’s been very rewarding and I’m, I’m excited. The one thing I want us to keep on. Doing is to keep being uncomfortable at times it gets a good, that’s also a good signal, like do things where we’re like unsure.
[00:25:18] If at some point we get into a quote unquote groove where we’re always certain that this is good and that we’re always certain that we should be doing this exactly the way we’re doing it. And that we love everything we put out there. Then we, we probably took a left turn down. Yeah. We took a left on down comfort lane in Eagle lane, and we’re not taking those roads less traveled that are a bit rockier, but maybe lead to more interesting places.

Leave a Comment